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Third Man in the Ring
My name is Ray Corona. My friends call me Popeye Ray. I am a professional boxing referee with a few MMA bouts under my belt. Listening to this podcast you will hear from a pro ref's perspective on fighting and life. We will be having professional boxing referees, actors, fighters, and others on as guests. If you have questions for refs on certain fights and certain calls, this is the place to ask. Reach out to us at thirdmanintheringpodcast@gmail.com
Third Man in the Ring
Big John McCarthy | UFC’s Original Ref, LAPD Stories & Bare Knuckle
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Ref Popeye Ray sits down with legendary MMA referee Big John McCarthy for a wide-ranging conversation about the early days of the UFC, life in law enforcement, what it really takes to be a referee, and why fighter safety matters inside the cage.
Big John shares stories from his upbringing, his father’s influence in LAPD and SWAT, his path into law enforcement, training with the Gracies, becoming one of the most recognized officials in combat sports, and how the referee’s role has evolved from the early “no rules” era of MMA.
They also talk about Bruce Lee, Gene LeBell, Chuck Norris, bare knuckle fighting, judging, referee training, boxing, and John’s return to officiating.
This is a conversation about fighting, discipline, legacy, respect, and the people who helped shape combat sports.
Subscribe for more conversations from Third Man in the Ring with Ref Popeye Ray.
Hey, welcome to Third Man in the Ring. Big John McCarthy. What's up, brother? Thank you, John. Thank you for doing this, bro. My pleasure. I've been hounding this legend for months, bro. Probably over I've had it three years now, and I've been sweating them for three years, but he's so busy, and I mean, I don't want to jump ahead, but he's refereeing again, and thank God for that. Because let's be honest, John, you're a living legend, bro. From and even though we're the same age, I'm 62 years old, twisted steel, and sex appeal. John's the woman.
SPEAKER_01No doubt about it.
SPEAKER_03You know what I mean? I just uh, but I think thank you for coming on, John, and um tell the fans where did John start? Where did where did John originate?
SPEAKER_02Let's see, where I was born? Yeah, where were you born in? I guess I originated in Linwood, California is where I was born. Linwood. And my parents immediately moved to Lakewood. They were in Lakewood for probably about three years uh during my life. And uh then we went to La Puente and then Hacienda Heights. A Valle there. We were close neighbors, man. That's right, man. Yeah, and so but I we ended up in Hacienda Heights at the end, and uh just yeah, I had a great life growing up there. I had a good childhood, yeah. I couldn't complain about anything, got in trouble a lot because I was stupid, because I was stupid, but you know what? You had to try things, yeah. Yeah, it was uh I had I have no complaints about anything. I was very lucky. Brother, brothers and sisters? I had a sister, she's an older sister, she's mean as a rattlesnake. No, she won't she won't admit that, but no, we uh we fought like cats and dogs our entire life. Now we get along, so you know eventually it all mellows out. I do have a step brother and sister. You know, my dad uh he married later on in life, so it's not like I grew up with them, yeah, but they're Amy and uh Todd are my uh stepbrother and sister, and they're fantastic, they're a big part of my life.
SPEAKER_03So dad's still still alive? Dad is not, dad died two years ago. And uh wow. Big influence in my life, though. Yeah, I met him one time. Yeah, very, very gentleman. Yeah, at that time. At that time, huh? That's what I that's what you were telling me.
SPEAKER_02Oh, dude. He was uh, man, you know, it's I I tell stories about him that you know people go, oh come on. And I and it Ray, I am not lying about, or I'm not exaggerating on any of it. He was my dad was was hysterical because he had certain, you know, I always say he was a little bit right of Attila the Hunt when it came to raising his son. But his big thing was, you know, he wanted me me to be able to fight. That was a big thing. So right away when I was seven, it was boxing, and then when I was nine, it was wrestling. And it just, you know. What did he do for a living? He was a Los Angeles police officer. He was uh Oh, okay. My dad is uh he's very well known in the law enforcement community. He uh he's considered the godfather of SWAT. Oh wow because the SWAT, special weapons and tactics, originated out of the Los Angeles Police Department.
SPEAKER_03And in those days, and I I don't mean this in a derogatory way. Well, no, no, huh? They were they were cowboys back then. Oh, dude. You only called them when you really needed it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it was your you know, there was a couple That might have been the 70s. Yeah, it was, you know, and there was a couple of incidences. What really started it was there was, you know, the Black Panther Party at the time was a black organization that was really, you know, they were rebellious, they were yes, they were about communism and things like that, and they wanted to go against the government, so there was a shootout at 51st and Central, and uh, no, what is it? Yeah, yeah, 51st and Central in downtown Los Angeles, well, not downtown Los Angeles, in Los Angeles. And truthfully, you know, the police department was not prepared for that kind of thing. That was, you know, they're they're they're out there shooting.
SPEAKER_03Am I wrong? Because Black Panthers mostly were in Oakland at the time, but they were flourishing because when I was a little boy, I remember hearing it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they were going on, you know, and look at they were trying to establish you know different, you know, areas. They were going to Washington, D.C. and everything, but there ended up being that it was a shootout, and you had, you know, the L at the time LAPD was allowed to have an Ithaca shotgun or a 38-caliber revolver. And when you're facing, you know, rifles and things like that, you're probably outgunned. And they were. The whole thing ended up with, you know, they got through it, but they realized we need to do something. It was Daryl Gates that said, we need to do something about this. And then what really made them popular was if you remember back, Patty Hearst was kidnapped, and she was kidnapped by a group called Supposedly she she was involved later in the right. You know what? I I look at that and it's like people can sit there and say what they want. But you look and you go, she was kidnapped. There's no doubt about that. All right, and when you are put into a closet and the things that happen with her, you know, eventually you're hearing these things and it becomes you're trying to save your own life. Yeah. And then you become almost, you know, you're you're you're with your captors, but they become your friends almost because that's all you have.
SPEAKER_03And I think, you know, people those weren't just basic uh Joe Blow robbers, these were an organization people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, they had a you know, they had killed people. They killed uh, I can't remember the guy's name, he was a superintendent up in Oakland of the schools. Didn't like that a lot.
SPEAKER_03I was already a you know youngster, I think in camp, fire camp or something like that, but I remember hearing all that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and so you know, so the you know, they like you said, they started out in Oakland, San Francisco Bay Area. The FBI was looking for it up there, they moved down into LA, and quickly there was a couple things that happened. They they they tried to basically shoplift at a Mells Sporting Goods in Inglewood, and there was a shootout there with a security guard, and they they got away, but it was quickly found out where they were at, and there was a shootout at 54th in Compton that became it was on all on the news, and it became this, you know, there was thousands of rounds fired, and that was the first time that people really saw SWAT. SWAT, yeah. And my dad was part of that. He was you know uh one of the uh supervisors for it, he was in the back, he got the Medal of Valor from the department for it, you know, a couple of guys, huh? Oh, and so uh, but from that, departments around the country and then around the world started wanting to have a unit in case of those kinds of situations, and he ended up going all over the world, teaching it, helping them set up their you know teams and things like that. So he became very popular, and uh it's kind of funny.
SPEAKER_03During this time though, John, did you think yeah, I think I want to be a cop? Oh hell no. No, not at all. Not even you know, I did not. Well, see, because you've seen what your dad was going through as far as danger?
SPEAKER_02You know what? I I and this is why I say like I had a great you know childhood as far as my dad would take me on his training things all the time. And you know, he would we he would like they would do training at Universal Studios in the you know in the mock-up towns and things like that, and he would stuff me into corners or into fucking attic spaces and don't move. And they would have to come try to fight me, right? Or, you know, he would do training where they were doing helicopter training, repelling, fast roping on helicopter, or doing what was called spy rigging where they would hook you in a harness. Dude, I was, you know, I was a 10-year-old kid flying underneath helicopters and shit. I was having a blast. So it was cool. I know, but it got me into the aspect of I actually thought all police officers were like the ones that he worked with. And they were there, you know, they were a bunch of, it's no different than any group. But when you have a group that's really good and they're together, you know, you got a brotherhood. And so you know, it's uh that's the way I thought it was. It's not the way it is, but you know, you look and you go, you know, it was uh maybe that's why when you do have that brotherhood, you really that is exactly it. You really stick to it. It's like you take a look at, you know, I look at us. You know, look, we came from close to the same area, different sides of the tracks at times.
SPEAKER_03I truly think we came from the same area. Yeah. You just throw chose a better route. You know what I mean? A route that you know envy. If I had to change everything, I wouldn't want to have been in the military or a police officer.
SPEAKER_02You know, and I was my son followed that. I was gonna go to the military, and I had a bunch of I was powerlifting at the time, and I had a bunch of guys that I was powerlifting with that were in the Marines at the time, and they talked me out of it. You know, that was that was oh yeah, that was the you know, don't do it, you know, you're gonna hate it, they're gonna want you to do this, you know, stupid this and stupid that. You know, don't do it. And so I was I was actually bouncing at bars. And you know, my dad.
SPEAKER_03Real quick, John? Yeah. How tall are you? Now? Yeah, no, uh at your height, at your highest. Six four and a half. Six four. Big dude, bro. At that time. Big dude. Yeah, I'm about six, two and a half. Yeah, we tend to shrink. Oh, dude, completely. Unfortunately, me, other things shrunk, but that's another story, you know what I mean? It's another story. Yeah, well, we were all there too. But yeah, so you're you're bouncing, and they're you're telling, they're telling you don't go to the military?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, there was uh, you know, they were, hey, don't do it. And so then I was bouncing, I was kind of getting in trouble. And my dad was the one. Yeah, just a little bit. And my dad was the one, you know, hey, you know, you're being an idiot, you're gonna get yourself, you're gonna either, you know, you better figure out what you're gonna do, you're gonna end up in prison. He goes, so, you know.
SPEAKER_03Because again, that era, that area that you lived in, and that era, you could have went either way. Sure. You could have won either way. You could have.
SPEAKER_02And I was lucky enough to say, you know, I I met who ended up being my wife. You know, I was going to college, playing sports, and then I end up meeting my wife, and then it gets to the point where it's like, you know, she's the girl for me. I better do something or else, you know, how am I gonna pay for things? Props to Miss McCarthy, huh? Yeah, props to Miss McCarthy. She's the she's the one that runs everything. That's right. But uh, so you know, I ended up applying to LAPD, and it took a long time. Tell the fans which where you went to high school, though. I went to Wilson High School. Wilson. Yeah, I went to Wilson High School in Hacienda Heights. Yes. Familiar with that one? Yeah. And uh grade school at the time? Out of black. I didn't go to school for school. I I went to school for girls and for friends. Yeah. You know, that was what was important, but you know, it wasn't school. You made it through at least graduation. Oh, school wasn't hard. You know, I wasn't at least I was, I guess, smart enough to be able to pass without really trying.
SPEAKER_03So it was so going back, you you met Miss McCarthy, and you what was your choices?
SPEAKER_02Did she say, hey, you gotta do something, homeboy? No, you know, it's at the time, you know, like I said, I was bouncing, but you know, I wanted more money. I was actually working for a company called JNS, which did like painting of streets or the, and the reason they hired me was at the time I was like 280 pounds, I guess. And I would uh they would they would do parking lots, striping of parking lots, the the concrete, you know, bumpers that go in and stuff. So, you know, I would take the concrete bumpers off the truck, put them on the things, slam the the rebar in through the app. Yeah, and so it was like, you know, I got paid decent for it and stuff, but it got to, you know, I'm sitting out there and it's like I would go to work, you know, the no shirt, so I look part Cherokee, so I I get real dark. You know, and my wife always she always thought I was part black, but it was it was uh, you know, I I would you know wear no shirt, have shorts on, you know, the whole day. But it was like, is this really what I want to do? And that was what my dad said, yeah, you better figure it out. And so I did. I applied for LAPD, I applied for the LA County Sheriffs, and it really was a matter of okay, which one could I get on? What did dad say about that? He he actually he liked it. You know, I it's funny because my boy. Well, you know, it was you know, I looked at it, you know, my son ended up becoming a sheriff, and I told him, Don't do it. You don't get to to Ron. Yeah, don't do it. But my dad was like, no, you need to do it because I think it's the only way that you're gonna not end up having a problem.
SPEAKER_03And and I'm guessing this is just a guess here because of his street knowledge, his street growing up, his SWAT, his LAPD, he's seen this is a structure for my boy. Oh, yeah, you know what I mean? Because you you all that energy doing what you were doing at first, I'm even guessing something would have snapped somewhere along that line.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, and you know, the story of my dad is first off, he had a horrible upbringing. You know, and his horrible horrible upbringing, you know, was the fact that he was in orphanages, he was on he was on his own at the age of 13. And he was on his own on from the age of 13 to 16. He lived in a boxcar in Winslow, Arizona. And uh it was actually a family there that finally, you know, and he had he had quit school, and a family there uh basically said, Hey, you go to school, you get good grades, you play sports, and you stay out of trouble, and you can live in our house. And that was the Lacey family. He did that, you know, and they said, you know, the day that you graduate, it's time to figure out where you're gonna go and move on. So he went from he did that, he played sports, he made all state, he did great stuff, you know, as far as that. Um he was homecoming, he was a super popular guy, but for a majority of his early years, big time struggle, he had a struggle, you know, he didn't have anybody. So family to him was huge, and structure to him was huge. So that's what he said.
SPEAKER_03So is it fair to say when dad spoke, you listened?
SPEAKER_01Oh, dude, if you didn't, he's gonna slap the talk shit. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. There wasn't no back talking dad, no?
SPEAKER_02No, no. My dad was uh he grew up fighting, you know, he grew up and hey, he had to survive. You know, and it's not like he did everything right, you know, he would he told me the things that he did wrong and you know why he did it, and he goes, and I'm sorry for those things now, but it's a matter of you know, when you're a kid, yeah, hungry, you know, you do things. But you know, he made it out of it. And it was the the one thing that it showed me was everybody. Look at everyone's not everyone has struggles. There are people that are you want to say privileged and you know have everything given to them. But there are those people. But most people, and even the ones that have, you know, money and stuff, you're you're gonna have ups and downs. That's right. It's part of life. But you make your choices. And you know, same as you. You know, we make choices, some of them good, some of them bad, and you've got to live your wives to do it. And that's why it's like even with you know, your kids, my kids, you know, hey, it only takes one thing to really alter your life forever. One really bad decision. Bad choice, whether it's drinking and getting in a car, and then all of a sudden you're in an accident and you hurt somebody so bad that now they're pressing charges on you. You didn't mean to do it, but you put yourself in that spot. So you gotta you gotta try to get your kid to make smart choices, and that's what my dad was always trying.
SPEAKER_03And through all this this youth was I I you said boxing was MMA wasn't well, this is a Bruce Lee. There was we grew up in the Bruce Lee area.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there was no MMA. It was the one thing, and and there, it's funny because it's again it goes back to my dad. My dad was all about what's real, you know, because I don't know about you, but as a kid, I loved professional wrestling, watching it. Yes, I you know, it was on Channel 11 in California. Uh Freddie Blassie. Freddie was classy Freddie Blassie, you know, and there was superstar Billy Graham. Billy Graham. God, you know, and I and it dude, you know, Billy Graham was Hulk Hogan before there was a Hulk Hogan. And you know, I I looked at it in my dad looking, he says, that's fake bullshit. You know, you go, and I go, Dad, they're bleeding, right? He goes, it's fake, they're cutting themselves, right? He would go, but it was fun to watch, bro. Oh, it was great to watch, but he was the guy that was, you know, look, and he believed, he absolutely believed in being able to, you know, handle yourself. And he believed in boxing, he believed in knowing how to use your hands and throw proper punches, stray punches, head movement, those kind of things. And he believed in wrestling. He had a guy that worked for him. And his name was Ronnie Gilbert. And Ronnie Gilbert was a wrestler out of Iowa, and there was an incident that occurred there where Ronnie Gilbert was actually undercover as a police, you know, he was a police officer undercover, and he was undercover with a motorcycle group, and uh they found out who he was and they went to fucking beat his ass. And they, you know, he couldn't respond to uh getting people there in time to help him get out of it. And so they, you know, they went after him, and he systematically beat five of them after they broke his nose with a motorcycle change by coming behind him and slapping her around his head. And my dad just believed that hey, you need to wrestle, you need to box. Those are things he didn't know anything about jujitsu. He didn't believe in karate, he didn't believe in the standard martial arts. He goes, Those people are wearing pajamas and they can't fight.
SPEAKER_03You know, Z and you and Jack Reese had a little thing on the way back from Stockton about Bruce Lee. Oh god, Bruce Lee, I go, don't say nothing about Bruce Lee, bro. But that's the movies, you know what I mean? It is in real in real life now. I might be jumping ahead, but in real life, that's not gonna work unless you actually spar and go through the actual, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02First off, if you are not taking shots and understanding what it feels like and how to respond to it, when it first happens, you're not gonna respond to it. And then and it's it takes being in a in a gym and having those things happen and actually fighting. Yeah, it doesn't mean you have to be fighting to you know to beat someone down. It's hard to know what it is to get hit. You gotta hit it. And if you don't, you know, you can sit there and say anything you want about, oh, I would do this. No.
SPEAKER_03How did Mike Tyson say everybody has a game plan until you get punched in the case?
SPEAKER_02They get punched in the face. That's true. It's true, man. You can sit there and say whatever you want. And then look, it I I love Bruce Lee. I think he was a phenomenal martial artist and actor. But to sit there and, you know, it's the same as don't say it, John. Don't say it. Bruce Lee was the man, bro. Don't say it. Yeah, but you take a look, you know, there were guys out there, Chuck Norris, you know, who became a friend of mine. He actually did spark. Oh no, Chuck Norris was a real deal. Yeah, and the one thing I, you know. Did you ever meet Chuck? Oh, yeah. Oh man. Chuck, Chuck brought me to the SP he just passed a couple months back. Yeah, just a a wonderful human being. Yeah, yeah. And the thing about Chuck was he believed in what was real, same as Bruce. Bruce did. He believed in, hey, I want to know everything and what really works. You know, and there's, you know, there's guys that you know that, you know, I don't know if you know the stories, but Gene LaBelle was the real deal. You know, Gene had a fight with Milo Savage in Utah. That was really we considered the first MMA, you know, and there was a bunch of guys in the martial arts world that, you know, they they were asked to do that, and they all turned it down facing a boxer of the you know, the quality of Emilo Savage at the time. And they all went to Gene and said, Hey, you need to represent you know the martial arts. Gene had an incident with Bruce Lee. Oh, sorry. You know, because Gene was, you know, uh a a world-renowned stunt coordinator. You know, he was the stunt coordinator for the Green Hornet, which Bruce Lee was Cato. And that's where I remember seeing him always on the show. Oh, yeah. Dude, it was awesome. Yeah. And involved in the wrestling as well. And he uh in that show, Bruce wanted to do something that was off of this, you know, kind of a gangway plank thing, and and Gene was going, man, no, you know, we're not gonna do that because you know and he's doing it saying we're not gonna do that based upon it's gonna hurt his stomach, man. You know, and Bruce is just looking at what's gonna look good, and Gene is going, no, yeah. And and they kind of got into an argument, and it was, you know, this is this all goes back to you can see the movie, there's the the movie that uh Yes, I remember that one.
SPEAKER_03Yeah that uh you're talking about when he fights with what you got in the parking lot at the movie screen.
SPEAKER_02Brad Brad plays the part. Well, that part is actually Gene LaBelle. Gene LaBelle. Somebody told me that too. It's not how what really happened as far as the car, but it is that Gene picked him up. You know, Gene picked him up and put him on his back. Had him by the balls and the chin and was holding it. And he's he's fighting and scratching. And Gene goes and he sits down in a chair like I am. And Bruce Lee is screaming, Let me go, let me go. And so I mean finally gets to the point he says, I hey, I apologize. Let me go. Gene puts him down and he's he actually looked at Gene and says, I want to train with you. And he started grappling.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, Gene was a legend. He was all around, man. Oh yeah. You know what I mean? All around, man. I remember him from wrestling at first. That's where I first seen him as a kid at the Olympic Auditorium in Almani. Absolutely. So yeah. Yeah. So so John, so martial arts wasn't around then, so obviously it was boxing.
SPEAKER_02For me, boxing was. My dad would take me to the Olympic Auditorium probably at least once a month. Sometimes once every two weeks, we would go. And uh, you know, if you you know if you've been to the Olympic Auditorium, I don't know if the other people have, but the Olympic was it was like this pit almost everything. And when, you know, it was hugely Hispanic. And you know, when people, you know, didn't like a fight, you know, back then it was beer bottles. They were throwing beer beer bottles and stuff, and stuff would have, but I mean, I grew up, you know, watching guys like Sugar Ray Ramos, Bobby Chicone, you know, the guys that, you know, and they were said Danny Little Red Lopez. I don't know if you remember him. Yes, yeah. Those, I got to go see those guys, and man, those were my heroes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So, John, you you finally, so what decided you to pick LAPD over sheriffs?
SPEAKER_02Truthfully, it was. Again, my dad was a little bit psycho at times. But And again, dad was LAPD, right? My dad was LAPD, and it was I went to the background for the sheriffs. And uh, there was one thing that happened that bothered me, and it was look, I at that point in my life, you know, I would when I was since I was a kid, you know, honestly six, seven years old, I would drink beer. My dad would, if I was with the guys, he would give me a can of beer. And that's not like I would drink the whole beer, but you know, I was acting like that was uh that was a thing back then.
SPEAKER_03I remember my uncles would do the same thing with me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it was, but you know, put your hair on your chest, bro. Any kind of you know, narcotic, marijuana, like that. You know, my dad, you know, yeah, you do that, I you will pay the price, I will I will kick the dog shit out of you. So I never did, you know, yeah. And so I had a background, and when you know, two things happened. One was there was a there was a male and a female that were on this background thing, and she started, she started asking me questions about uh you know drug use and stuff, and I said, No, never. And you know, their their thing was they said uh well let's get this straight right now. The use of narcotics, you know, within a certain amount of times is not a disqualifier. Lying is. So she's assuming you're lying. Oh, that's exactly right away. You know, I'm a liar. Yeah, and I said, Okay, yeah, I said, never. Well, you realize you're gonna take a polyograph. I don't care.
SPEAKER_03No, now mind you, back in those days, the criteria to be a police officer was way up here, a little bit more.
SPEAKER_02So that so I'm painting that picture that's so I had that, and then the guy, you know, was my dad used to do some wacky stuff. And he well, one of the things my dad used to do, and it was it's like a mind over matter thing, but it's pain. You know, if you know what the badge of an LEPD badge, you know, an LEPD badge is an oval. Yeah, and it's got a you know, this the pin on it, you know, that hooks it in is about you know three and a half inches long, and it's thick, and it's you know, sharp to a point, but you know, it's not like a hypodermic needle. And my dad would sit there, and if you looked at his forearm, it had all these dots. You know, he had all these dots on his forearm. And you would look at it and go, what the f- what the hell is that? Well, that was because my dad would sit there and he would take his badge and he would take a big lighter, because my dad smoked you know for a long time. Take the bic lighter and he heat it up to get all the bacteria off of it. But it would leave soot on the thing, and he would sit there and talk to you as he would take his badge and press his badge, you know, all the way into his forearm, so it's just, you know, sitting there? It's sitting there. And it was like he would do it when all the guys were drinking and they were, you know. The fellas, when he was with the fellas. Well, so the guy who was sitting there and he says, he says, it says here that you know your father was a police officer. Where was the police officer? I said, Los Angeles. He says, really? You know, what where did he work? And I said, he worked Metropolitan Division SWAT. And he goes, for how long? And I said, honestly, for you know, 20 years. And he goes, really? He goes, I used to work SEB is what the sheriff's SWAT was. He goes, and we were we work with those guys. He says, I don't remember anyway, except some crazy bastard would stick his badge in his arm. And I just said, Yeah, I don't know him. That was your dad. Yeah, it was my dad, and I'm like, ah shit. So that was you know my time with the sheriffs as far as my background. My background with LAPD went like really good. I go, I'm going LAPD. Yeah, that was the difference maker for me. That was it. It was a good choice.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it worked out for me. Even though Ron went sheriffs on that, we'll talk about Ron right now. That's his son. He's Ron, he became a detective, but we'll we'll get to that. Yeah. So through all this time, you get into LAPD. How long did you serve though? 23 years. 23 years, huh?
SPEAKER_02That's like 22 and seven months or eight months, something like that. You were a street cop? Uh I was started out as a street. Well, yeah, for most of it, you know, the whole time I never really climbed much in the department. I, you know, yeah, I got out of the academy, worked South Central, and when I worked at uh Southwest Division. Uh from Southwest, I got to go over to 77th, which was just one division over. You're supposed to try uh to transfer completely out of a bureau. There's South Bureau, West Bureau, Central Bureau in LA. But for a little bit, I was kind of in trouble. And so they put me in 77th. Just a little trouble? Just a little trouble. What's new? And so eventually I went from 77th to Hollywood. And I got transferred to Hollywood. I had a blast there. I ended up working Hollywood Vice, which was called PET at the time. And from that I went to narcotics, and from narcotics I ended up going to gangs. And I worked West Bureau Crash for about six years until I ended up. It was honestly, you know, working gangs will get you to the point of you go, well, I'm gonna end up either getting in trouble and getting fired here, I need to do something different. And it was it's it's a matter of you can look and you go, you know, you see, and it's it's so hard for some kids, is the way I look at it. Because, you know, people look and go, well, why would someone join a gang? Well, there's a lot of reasons, you know, and there is a lot of reasons. And one is it's a family, it's a brotherhood. It is, and it's also survival, because you get some of these kids, you know, they're good kids, and they are trying to do what's right, they're trying to go to school, and they're getting the shit beat out of them by the local gang that's there, you know, as they're trying to do what's right, and eventually it's like, you know, for survival, I need to be part of that. And they just kind of get sucked into it that way, and you look and you go, after a while, it's frustrating, you know, because you know it's man, that that was a good kid.
SPEAKER_03And now I mean, dude, from my experience, sometimes you don't see the future of it. You just assume, oh, these are my buddies, my buddy, you know, my friends, but you don't see the outcome, even though some people tell you, hey, bro, that well, back in our days, I don't really hear anybody telling me all you're gonna do is there's not being in prison or dead. Yeah, but it just was gangs, you know. But you know, again, it's family.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it really is, and that's where it becomes, it's almost like for us for a lot of it, it overtakes their actual family with you.
SPEAKER_03I'm our dad, so that's fine.
SPEAKER_02You know, we care about you, we have your back. And so it does become, hey, these are the people that are fucking for me. But when you're the police officer and you're you know you're dealing with these individuals and you're seeing what's happening over and over, and after a while you look and you go, man, it ain't gonna change. Yeah, that was my time to say, you know what, I need to do something different. And so I went to the uh to be an instructor at the academy, and I taught tactics, defensive tactics. By this time, had you started refereeing it?
SPEAKER_03No, no, no, no. So let's get to that because so we we see the highlights, but I seen a clip there on YouTube that you were gonna fight at one time then.
SPEAKER_02At one time? Yeah, but that was out of stupidity.
SPEAKER_03Just like I can kick some of these guys out. Oh well.
SPEAKER_02You know, how it all happened was just to be honest, there was the Rodney King incident. You remember that? And that was back in like March of 1991, I think. You know, and that whole thing started this, you know, giant mushroom of the training that was being done. At the time, I was at Crash, I was working gangs. And they put together this um uh basically, it was called a martial arts review committee. And it was done by a guy named Greg Dossey, who was the sergeant in charge of it. I don't even know what he's if he's even still alive now, but he put that together. And somehow I got asked to be on it. It was about you know people that had some knowledge of combat and you know self-defense and things like that. And they and they took Which is a good choice. I mean, you can't you can't teach somebody you don't know, right? Well, and so they took all of these martial artists from around Southern California, you know, that they had you know, Gene LaBelle was on it, Go Kart uh Chavicki was on it, and you know they had all these people, the Machado brothers, the you know, Hory and Gracie. You know, and at the time I had heard of the Gracies uh from a friend of mine saying, hey man, you need to go work out with these guys, you would love what they do, all this stuff. Never met them, anything. So I go to the first uh meeting that they had for this, and they had, you know, the tables were kind of set up like a horseshoe and they had mats in the middle, like they were gonna do demonstration stuff. Yeah. And uh for whatever reason, they have a guy come out, yeah. I don't remember his name, I won't say it, but you know, he uh he's got like a student of his with him, and he's taken and grabbing this guy and throwing him all over the place, and it's you know, okay. You know, and I was, you know, I was sitting at the table, right? And I, you know, I just put my hand in the thing, and it was like, and he for whatever reason he looked at me and he said, you know, you don't seem to think that this works. Oh. Oh, and uh and I was like, hey, no disrespect. You know, at the time, again, I was 29, 30 years of age. At that time, you don't have to say any more about that. You know, I thought I was invincible. Yeah, yeah. You know, I wasn't afraid of much. I wasn't real bright, but it was, you know, I I'd always done very well in fighting. And and that's pretty much your prime, to be honest. Oh, hell yeah. And it was uh, you know, he goes, You don't seem to think I said, look, no disrespect, he's letting you do that. I go, it's different if I don't let you, and it's much different if I do something back to you. You know, and he goes, Well, you said, would you like to come up? And you know, I said, I'll come up there, but I'm not gonna just let you do that. And my the boss of the time says, John, stay down. And I said, And I sat there and he goes, No, no, I'd really like him to come up. So I go out there, he says, you know, you can do whatever you want, you know, and uh, and I said, Okay, and he he says, Let's go. All I did is a shot in double legged, boom, picked him up, put him down, and grabbed him by the throat, put my hand slammed by his head, and I was getting yelled at by my boss. And it was like, John, yeah, what the hell is wrong with you? He said, you know, he said, did he just say John? He goes, Well, Corson, get off of him, right? And I'm like, yes, sir, right, get up. I went back to my seat. You just beat up the guy that's supposed to beat you up. Well, I didn't beat anybody up. But when I went back to my seat, this guy comes and sits down next to me. And that changed my life. Because that guy was Horion Gracie. Oh, wow. And Horian came up and he starts talking to me, and I didn't know who he was until he finally says, you know, my name's Horion Gracie. And uh and obviously, you know this is the big Jiu Jitsu family, right? I knew based upon a friend of mine, Joe, who they were, you know, telling me as soon as he said Horion Gracie, I was like, Oh, you're one of those guys. And I knew that there was brothers, I knew that they liked to fight on the ground. That was really the only knowledge I had for the most part of them. And did you hear of jujitsu at this time or prior? No, no, you know, I'd heard Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. I knew that jujitsu was in my form, it was like judo, but it was not so much the throws, it was I knew more ground fighting, and it was all about positioning on the ground, but I didn't really understand submissions or any of those things. And the one brother became a pretty much a legend.
SPEAKER_03What was his name? Well, quite a few of the brothers. Hoyce was. Hoyce was the first one. Well, at this time, obviously, dad was still alive. Oh, yeah. The dad was still alive. Absolutely. Because he was, he's uh, I don't want to say disrespectfully, he was supposedly the elite trainer at that time.
SPEAKER_02Well, now he had he had moved from LAPD, he had first gone to work for the Department of Energy, training their people to protect nuclear power plants and things like that. And then he went, he became uh the I guess trainer and stuff for the International Association of Chiefs of Police at this time. So he was going around the country training people all over the place, living in Gathersburg, Maryland. But when Horian sat down and he started talking to me, his big thing was, you know, where do you train? And I go, no, I'm a police officer here, you know. And he says, No, I know that. He goes, where do you train? And I go, I train with, you know, just other officers that are friends of mine and stuff like that. And he goes, you know, why don't you come train with me? And I looked and I said, Yeah, I'd like to do that, you know, and he goes, When? And I was like, Ah, you know, you know, someday we know he says, How about today? And honest to God, and I was like, uh, well, you know, I don't know. And he goes, How are you, how would you know? I said, Hold on, let me, you know, I'll find I'll find out, you know, meaning I gotta call the wife because you know I got kids I gotta pick up and stuff. And so I said, you know, hey, I got I said, I get off at uh four o'clock. And he says, he goes, I have a you know, I have a uh house down in Torrance. Why don't you come on down? I'll give you the address, you know, and uh I'll be waiting on you. And sure enough, you know, I drove to that. Hoyce was the first person that I worked out with, you know, that I actually went with. We actually kind of went at each other, you know, thinking that, you know, I it was hysterical because you know, I I took him down, which was no big deal at the time because he was kind of letting me anyways. Um I'm stuck, I've got him in a cradle and I'm stuffing him, and I'm thinking, these guys aren't that good. And he started talking to me, you know, and you know, he he had a heavy uh accent at the time, but he's like he's breathing almost like through a straw, and he says, Oh my friend, he says, You see Rocky. And I'm thinking to myself, I'm thinking, motherfucker's talking to me, right? And he goes, Everyone think he lose too. Right? And eventually, you know, I realized I had to, you know, change because it wasn't working, and changed, he catches me in an arm bar, and that arm bar fucking made me go, whoa, how'd you do that? And I fell in love with what they did. And so from that point, I became a student, and I started training with them, and then this guy named R. Davy came in and wanted to do this thing called the ult, well, he called it the War of the Worlds, was what it was, and it was gonna be who's the greatest fighter in the world. And then, you know, it was actually supposed to be Hickson, Hoyce's older brother, was gonna be the guy that was gonna do it. Hickson ended up opening up his own gym on Pico in uh West LA, and Horian was like, you know, you're not gonna take all of these people to your gym. I want him. He had opened up his gym on uh, I think it was Carson Avenue in Torrance, Carson Boulevard, excuse me. And uh so that's where we were training out of, and and Hoyce was part of his school, and so Hoyce was put into that, and then Hoyce asked me, he said, hey, hey, they're you know, they're gonna put big guys in this thing. And at the time, again, I was 290, and he says, you know, he goes, Would you come and uh help with my training and being my sparring partner? And I said, Yeah, absolutely. So I would go from the academy to Torrance, from Torrance. I was living, I think, in Corona, California at the time, you know, all the way to Corona, and but you know, I would go there to train with him, and then eventually you know got my kids into jujitsu, and so I would, I would at times, it didn't matter what I was doing, it seemed like Torrance was my place that I was bouncing back and forth from. But uh, that's how I started, was just you know being a hoist spar bar the at UFC won. That's why I went there early, was to, you know, just be there as his training partner to get him, you know, acclimated to the elevation and things like that and stuff. So well, where did the where did the the referee just come into it though?
SPEAKER_03The referee came in because it let's be honest, John. This is what became your oh your legacy. Even though you're still around, you're still refereeing. I mean, this is like John McCarthy.
SPEAKER_02Think about, you know, just what's meant to be is meant to be. It's weird. You know, I never wanted to be a referee. I never thought about being a referee. You know, and you asked about you know the fighting part, this is kind of part of it, because just before Hoyce won that first UFC, I did fill out the application to fight and you know, put it, you know, in art's office. What did the wife say about that? No, she you know, she had seen me fight before, and she was like, you know, are you sure you know her big thing, are you sure that you're not gonna get in trouble with the department? That was the big thing. That's right. Right? And I said, No, I'm not sure, but you know, I'm gonna try to fake my way, I'm gonna try to fake my way through it, right? So it was, you know, uh just part of what you know I like doing, so she was she was okay with it. But the very first UFC, they brought in two guys from Brazil, one named Jal Baheto, another named Elio Vigio. They were both black belts under Elio Gracie, Horian and Hoist's dad. And uh, you know, they were brought in because they kind of had an idea of, you know, no rules fighting and stuff. Well, the very first fight, you know, you go back to the you know, UFC one, there were three rules. You know, there was no biting, no eye gouging, and no groin shots. And one of the things for the referees was, you know, the referee couldn't stop the fight. Yeah. I'm not saying it was smart, you know, and it's the same thing I started under. It's how I got my job, was you know, you couldn't stop the fight unless the referee, I mean the fighter tapped out or the corner threw in the towel. Those were the two times you could stop the fight. So the very first fight was a guy named Gerard Gerdeau, a kickboxer from Holland, uh, tough guy, you know, and he's fighting a sumo wrestler from Hawaii named uh Taylor Wiley's his real name. He was called Taylor Thule. You know, and uh Taylor Thule comes out and he kind of charges Gerard, and Gerard kind of just sidesteps him. Taylor falls to the mat. And when you know it's it's almost reverts back to your training. When he hits the ground, you can almost see him just relax because in sumo, you hit the ground, it's over, you're lost. And so he kind of relaxes and he kind of turns towards Gerard, and Gerard just punts him in the face, and the tooth goes flying out of the cage, goes right by my wife. That was it, my wife was out, she's goes, I'm out, she's gone. And the other tooth goes in Gerard's foot, and he then goes and hits him with her right hand and cuts you know Taylor Thule, you know, over the eye with it, and Shao Baheto is the referee, and he comes in and he stops it. And there's a big bruh ha over why'd you stop it? He can't stop it. And so Horian, you'll see Horian comes up and he's you know, Horian's in a tux with this white silk scarf, he's looking really good and stuff, but he's arguing in Portuguese. You're not supposed to stop the fight, and Jao Baheto is saying, this guy can't fight, right? And uh so that was the fight that got me the job. Because he wasn't supposed to stop it. Horian then comes to me and says, I need you to referee for me. And I looked at him and I said, I don't know how to referee. And I was, you know, I wasn't lying. I did not know how to referee. And my qualifications, he says, he goes, No, John, you'll do great. He goes, You More than you know, most of these guys, as far as anything in it. He says, and you don't mind seeing people get hurt. That was my qualification. So that was right about that, I guess. That's not true. You know, it's funny because you know, I did the when I did the my first refereeing was UFC 2, which had 15 fights that I did every fight. And uh I quickly realized because you gotta figure at UFC 2, there was no no biting, no eye gouging, but you could hit someone to the groin because some fighters it said, oh, if I could have kneed to the groin, if I could have done this, they go, okay, great. And they were hitting behind the head, huh? Oh, yeah. You know, that that was legal. That was dangerous. Oh, dude, everything, you know, and so, and you know, the the big thing that what I looked at is you know, being on the streets, you know, you've seen people get stomped. Okay, and you know, you look and you know, you see things in fighting all the time, and you see lumps and bumps. Lumps and bumps are okay. Dents are not. You know, and you know, you see you stomp on someone, you stomp on their head. You know, I have seen what occurs in the real world when someone's head gets stomped and it's not pretty, they don't survive it. And I and I realized quickly, you know, in there I was like, holy shit, I'm in a position where I'm supposed to allow this to happen. I'm not supposed to, I can't do that. You know, and luckily I made my way through it. You know, I thought the very the very first fight I had was it was great, it was easy, got caught in a guillotine choke. I'm like, perfect, you know, no problem, that was easy. Next one was the same thing, it's kind of perfect, easy. And from that moment on for the rest of the night, I was in trouble. And I after the show, I told them, I said, that's it, I'm never doing that again. And they go, why? It was great, you did great. And I go, I was horrible, and no one should end up doing that because you're gonna get someone seriously hurt.
SPEAKER_00And they go, what are you talking about? Everyone's fine. And I said, it doesn't matter that everyone's fine.
SPEAKER_02I go, you're putting that referee and these fighters in a position with the rules that you have that someone's gonna die or be seriously injured to the point they are not the same person for the rest of their life. I said, I can't be in that.
SPEAKER_03And it's funny you say that because when I first seen it, I go, that ain't gonna last. Somebody's gonna get killed. Yeah, that's it. I when I actually seen it, I felt like I was like at a party and a fight broke out. Yep. I felt my blood like, oh yeah, you know what I mean? I said, that ain't gonna happen, man. But that blew up. And so did did at that second one, did you already start thinking we gotta make some rules?
SPEAKER_02Oh, I at that second one, I honestly told them, I said, I'm done. I'm never doing that again. And they go, unless there's rules or and it was they said, No, what are you talking about? I said, and then I said, Look, you're gonna get someone seriously hurt if you don't give me the ability to stop the fight when a fighter cannot intelligently defend himself. So that was your first rule? That was my first rule. And and Horian looked at me and he goes, All right, let me think about it. And called me into his office, you know, we because we got back, I went to training, called me into his office and said, you know, that that thing you know you you were talking about, you know, you know, the fighter, you know, being able to defend himself. I said, intelligently defend himself. Yeah, that stuff. He goes, okay. If the fighter cannot intelligently, you know, defend himself, you can stop the fight.
SPEAKER_03And let me ask you this uh that second UFC show, was it a big seller? Is that why he said, hey, I got something here that sell?
SPEAKER_02You gotta figure the the first UFC sold, and they were hoping, you gotta figure it out it sold, I think, at $14.95 was the pay-per-view price, and they were hoping for 20 to 25,000 pay-per-views. They got 87,000. So they basically tripled what they were looking for. So they knew they had something on them. The second one, it not only went to the 87, it went into the 150. So it almost doubled again. So they knew and kept growing. Yeah. Yeah, you gotta figure out it continued, and that you know, that's what really it brought the fire on it too, was all those eyeballs, and now there was more attention, and now they were putting videos out, and it really started to put a little bit of a wedge towards boxing in that boxing pay-per-views. Now it was boxing pay-per-views were more money, yeah. And so you're always gonna get the boxing die hard that is gonna buy boxing, but the casual now had a choice, and a lot of them were now jumping over to oh, yeah, uh, I I think I'm gonna put my money to this, it's cheaper, and I'll you know, I'll figure out a way to see this later. And so the UFC started to put a little bit of a little bit more.
SPEAKER_03That's it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so that it that's that started a little bit of the the turmoil for the UFC based upon you know politics and you know money, sponsors, those types of things.
SPEAKER_03You know, the difference. And and L just off the top of your head, what are the most memorial the the the fights that you've done in UFC? Oh, geez. And I mean, they're counting this. If you're I mean, any any any fights stand out in your mind? Oh, uh a ton. Because you've been in, I mean, as referees, I can say you're in there and you're you're you got the best seat in the house. The best seat in the house.
SPEAKER_02But you know it's not a seat, and you know that you know what you don't get to watch the fight the same as a fan.
SPEAKER_03As a fan because what are you what are you looking at? I'm looking for safety and the no rules would be broken.
SPEAKER_02And you're and you're looking basically at the person that you look at as having problems in the fight. Well, you might get to stop. You're watching them like 80, 20, 90, 10 at times, you know, you're not watching the fight like the fans. The sounds are making. There you go. You know, it's you know, and those are the things, you know, those, you know, you hear the the the punch land and the air go out of someone, and then they're going. And no one hears that but his opponent and you. And those are the things it's like, oh, if people only knew right now. Because the guy, we a lot of times, you know, they're still poker-faced, and you know, they're they're doing their best to you know, act like they're not hurt when they're dying. You know, but you know, you know he's dying, and so now you're getting closer and you're thinking, hey man, you need out of this, I'll you know, I'll get you out, but you know, you're not saying anything to him. But these are the things that only we you know hear and are and have that knowledge of what's going on.
SPEAKER_03So, so John, you do you get this career, you become the face of UFC. I mean, let's be honest, this is where everybody knows big John McCarthy, you know. I mean, thank God for your career. I mean, don't be, you know, oh no.
SPEAKER_02Look, I I tell people all the time, you know, Ray, first off, I had I I have no want for anything when it comes to the fight game. Every bucket list thing that I could, you know, ask for, I was able to be part of and do. And now John's a boxing referee.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah. Which I'm grateful for as well, because I'm telling you fans, this man is always he's always got a listening ear for any referee. Absolutely. When I came to him for advice, he picked up the phone. When I came to him for advice face to face, he listened. And that that's why I wanted him on my podcast for the simple fact you're a humble legend. You know what I mean? And now that you're a boxing referee, let's just jump to that now. Well, no, let's just jump back. Okay, let's jump back. Because you he retired there for for if you became a commentator, which you were awesome on that. But why when you're at the top of your game?
SPEAKER_02Because I couldn't do it the same way. I I got hurt. You know, it was one of those I didn't notice. Oh, man, you know, I got I got hurt back. I had had a neck surgery. You know, I started having problems with you know my arm and shoulder at one point. And I went, you know, I went to, you know, SCOA, you know, Southern California Orthopedic. Oh, yeah, yeah. And uh I went there saying, hey, I got a problem with my shoulder, you know, I can't lift my arm up at past a certain point, things like that. And they said, Yeah, you know, we want to do this nerve and nerve test. And so they do this nerve test and they go, hey, there's a real problem here. And then they you know, they're taking pictures and they take pictures of my you know spine and spinal cord and stuff like that. And you can see at one point it's it's compressed pretty close. You know, and that's from all the, you know, everything that I did, and you know, some of it's stupid, you know, and it was like, okay, and they their whole thing is you we need to re you got two discs that are basically gone. And this is why I'm shorter. And they said, you know, uh, you know, we're gonna do this. And I was, you know, I was a rockhead about a lot of it, and that uh, you know, I said, hey, look, okay, and I had all these fights scheduled. And so I said, look, I have a a break right here. I have six days.
SPEAKER_03I want this fixed in six days.
SPEAKER_02I want to come back on the six days. Well, and so, you know, they go, Well, you can't. I said, Well then we're not gonna do it. And then it was like, I can't tell you what to do. I'm just telling you that's not real smart. Right? And I go, okay, I understand. So they go in and they they cut me open in the front and they put in two rubber hockey pucks is what I say, two discs replacement things where the discs were supposed to be. This is your spine, huh? Yeah. Isn't that kind of dangerous? Yeah, you know, it's just you didn't have much of a choice, really. So it's like, you know, so I had that, they put this cage around my spine and those to like hold it in. And uh I actually went and did a fight six days later, you know, and it was, you know, everything was okay, and I was good for like a year, and then I was teaching uh jujitsu, and I always had uh people, especially when I was teaching a course for refereeing, you always get the person that you know comes in and says, Well, you know, I've got these guys, and you know, they're doing this and this, this is the new technique, and I go, you know, sometimes go, oh, that's really that's cool, that's great. And then sometimes you go, that's not gonna work. I said, that's bullshit. Don't, you know, if you think, you know, you'll you'll see people right now thinking that you know, if you take a rear-naked choke and I press my chin on your arm, they're gonna go, ow, you're gonna get choked unconscious, okay? But sometimes you've got to teach people and show them, hey, that doesn't work. Prove them wrong in a sense. Exactly. So I was teaching, they were they were trying to do this choke. It really wasn't, you know, a it wasn't a good choke. It was more of what I would call, and I know most people, a Japanese necktie is a neck crank, and it really twists your head down and stuff, and it was more towards that. But he was trying to say that you could choke people out doing this, and I go, You're not gonna choke someone out doing that. It's it's more of what pain can they put up with. And so we did it, you know, it ends up to where I go like 90 seconds in this freaking hole. It was a long time because he's squeezing and trying, and uh, you know, and I'm putting up with it, and I didn't feel anything happen, it was uncomfortable, okay, but I can't tap because then I'm saying he's right. So you know, I put up with it, it doesn't choke me out. I get up, I go, all right, and he goes, damn right, okay. And the next day I woke up and I was like, and I was like, oh, damn it, what did I do? And then I realized, oh, that's what I did. Okay, it'll go away. And it didn't. It didn't go away at all. And it was weird because you know, it's you know, you know, I used to be a lot bigger, you know, and uh I mean you could watch as I started to atrophy, just I mean, within a week, it was one side of me. My w I had my uh left arm would just shoot with a stinger, you know, like a s you know, when you football, yeah, you get that fire that goes down your arm and it would shoot and it would st it would happen, it would go for about 10 seconds, and then it would stop, and then five minutes later it would come back. And then it would stop, and then five minutes later it would come back. And that five minutes started to shorten within a relative sh relatively short time to where it got to the point where I would have the stinger, it would finally relax, and then five seconds later it was back. And it was, I couldn't sleep, and I got I went a couple of months and it got to the point where I couldn't raise the hand of the person on my left-hand side. I was hoping the person on this side would would win, and it was okay, I can't do this, and so then I go and I have I have another surgery on my neck, and because they say, Oh, you've crushed all the nerves on that side, the nerves getting pinched. So I go and I have surgery, and for 24 hours I was good, it stopped, and all of a sudden it went to the other side. I know, dude. I just trust me, I was like, you gotta be kidding me. And all of a sudden the fire started going down my right arm, and I'm like, holy shit. So I go back to the doctor and I said, Man, I don't know what you did. And it wasn't him, but I said, This is happening now on my right side. It's the same damn thing. And he goes, Look, you know, I tried to, you know, you said you didn't want to be fused, and I didn't. I didn't want my neck fused. He goes, You already have a cage on the back.
SPEAKER_03Now, mine you fused would have made you do this kind of thing, no? Makes me do what I do now. You know? I don't notice it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so obviously you notice it, but I don't see anything. Yeah, so you know, for me to put my head back, that's it. That's as far back as my head'll go. If to go to the side, that's it. To go to the side, that's it. You know, I can't go, you know, I turn my body. You know, I just got used to turning my body now. But you know, he went and he did a third, so I got a big old zipper down the back of my uh neck here, and that one at least fixed that took care of that fire. Fire, huh? You know, but I I lost a ton of muscle mass from it. And uh I gave myself a month to uh basically try to heal and come back and you know get myself back. And I I put a goal of it was New York, and it was in Madison Square Garden. There was George St. Pierre was gonna uh fight Michael Bisping for his middleweight championship. And so I was assigned to that show, and I was like, okay, that's the show I'll come back on. And uh I actually had another championship fight on that show, and it was Yuana Janjachik was the uh how many championship fights have you had? Somewhere in the area of 400 and some, I would say. 500. A lot of championship fights. Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, that's why I say I don't have any bucket list. It's like, and I'm being honest, you know, it's like if you know, if you and I are working together, and you can Which we are tonight. Yeah, tonight. And but you get the the main event, dude. I'm thrilled. I love it. Well, I've never seen you as a hater, though. Honestly, I've never seen that. I get more, you know, the people that go through my course now and stuff like that, you know, and we've got a bunch of guys that we work with now that did, you know, and they've made it all the way up to you know working the biggest fights. And man, I get more joy out of watching them and seeing them do well. Dude, man, that that's now my big fucking A. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_03You know, it's well since we're on that, since we're almost coming to an end, tell us about your course. Now, let me let me say it like this. John has an awesome MMA referee judge course. You're still doing the judging with the with your course? Yeah. If you want to have a path to become a referee and judge, this is a course to take. But mind you, like Jack always says, doesn't guarantee that you're gonna be a referee. It's just saying if you want to start this path, or maybe you just want to be a fan that wants to know what a referee and a judge is thinking. That's right. This is the course to take. You know what I mean? Or just to come to be starstruck with John.
SPEAKER_02No one's starstruck with me.
SPEAKER_03That's a a course to take because you'll hear it face to face, one-on-one. I don't care if there's 20, 30 people, he will answer your questions one-on-one. But tell us a little bit about this course that you have. And it'll be on the split screen here because the next one is coming up in July.
SPEAKER_02July 17th to the 19th in Vegas at Extreme Coutures Gym. And this one will be with uh John McCarthy, uh Mike Beltran, and Ron McCarthy.
SPEAKER_03Mike Beltran, who was a student. Right. I don't know who I don't know who Mike Beltran is, but some guy anyway, and Ron McCarthy, uh John's son. So that in itself, those are the three top officials in the world, guys. So I mean it it'll be out there, the info, but if you want to take this course, I I advise you to take it and tell the fans a little bit. What does it do? What is this course about?
SPEAKER_02The course is to try to get you to have an idea of what it takes to be you know a referee because it's not what people think.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay, what it means is what it takes to be a judge. It'll give you all of the information as far as hey, here's your criteria, here's your rules, here's your mechanics, this is what how you want to. The real thing is to try to get people past the early mistakes that we all make. And you know, we all we're all gonna make mistakes, we're human, but to understand that if you make the mistake, okay, own up to it. Don't sit there and lie to yourself. Yeah. Figure out how you made the mistake, how are we gonna correct the mistake, and let's move on and get better. And so the whole thing is to get people past that early stage when, you know, just like when you first were walking in there, it's like, do I really know what I'm doing? Well, this will get you past a lot of it, but it's not gonna get you past everything. And it's gonna take time. I always try to, you know, everyone looks at, you know, they look at, I could do boxing, I could do MMA, you know, because they're a fan of the sport. And it's it's not that no, you know, it's not. And it it's readily apparent when you put, you know, them into a cage or a ring with two fighters the very first time, and you know, it's like we don't do anything. You know, we just, you know, hey, I just want you to move. Yeah, you know, and their ability to try to put themselves in the right place is so bad, you know, because it's natural for you. You know, you move, you know, you have your own style of moving, and I love it. I always make fun of you because it's you've got that strut, that slide that's, you know, I it's to me, it's cool. I love it. But everyone's got their own style. You know, Jason Herzog's got his style, I have my style, Herb's got his style. Everyone's got you know their way of moving. But the movement has to have a purpose in putting you in the right place to see the things that you need to see.
SPEAKER_03Because uh I I I John already I know his answer, but you gotta remember, fans, we're holding two people's lives in our hands. You have that's no joke, well.
SPEAKER_02Well, and it's you you look at it, and people I always say that, you know, the person on the outside, the fan, you know, they can sit there and afterwards, hindsight's 20-20, that's great. But Monday morning, Monday morning quarterbacks? Monday morning quarterbacks, right? But you look and you go, you being that guy in that ring, you're the only one that come the next day, be it a Sunday morning, a Saturday morning, you know, off of a Friday or Saturday night, you're the only one that has to look in the mirror and be responsible for what you did that night. Did you do what you were supposed to do to take and make that person who is in combat, they're getting paid to get damaged. There's no doubt about that. Yeah. But did you let them take unnecessary damage? And that damage is now going to either affect their lives forever or for temporarily in a way that you know they took too much. You gotta live with it. You gotta look in the mirror every day. That's not an easy thing to do.
SPEAKER_03And that's a a small little window. Yes, it is. And you know what? At the same time, you you might agree with me, John, we don't want to steal from that fan that paid harder money in the nosebleed. But at the same time, our job is to make sure that fighter, God willing, he walks out on his own. And can come back and do it again if they want. Fight another day. That's it. And and you know, in my instruction, I've seen you do instructions. In my instructions, I I don't do MMA much. I've got a few files. It's mostly camel, but and thank you for that, John. Um, but I always tell the fighters, if I have to stop the fight on your behalf, I'd rather you be mad at me today than your parents hating me in the morning. There you go. You know, I'm not sure. It's a perfect perfect analogy. I don't want, I want this guy to go home and say, you know what, Ray, you should have let me fight. All right, fine, be mad at me. I don't want his parents to say, why didn't you stop it? Why didn't you stop it?
SPEAKER_02You know, and I don't want that on my own. See, because every fan, when they sit there and they watch something, they can sit there and go, oh, you stopped it too early. Or when they go, Oh, you stopped it too late, that's on you. And then they can walk away from it. You can't.
SPEAKER_03Exactly. And you know what? And this is why I say, guys, if you want to take this course, you gotta sign up ASAP because they do sell out. I took the course and it does sell out fast. Yeah. You know what I mean? And you'll see it on the split screen here, how to do the course, how to sign up and all that. But that's gonna be in July. That's in July. Las Vegas, no? Yep. Yeah, Las Vegas. So, John, let me ask you about this bare knuckle stuff. Let's do it. What do you think about it? I love it. You love it?
SPEAKER_02I love it. You know, it's uh years ago now, David Feldman, who is the president of Bare Knuckle.
SPEAKER_03Um, they have a few, uh what, two, three organizations?
SPEAKER_02There's a couple of variations, but bare knuckle fighting BKFC. It's probably it's the biggest organization, you know, it's kind of like the UFC of Is that what we're doing tonight? That's what we're doing tonight. But, you know, he actually contacted me and said, you know, hey, you know, he was trying to, you know, get people to buy into understanding what bare knuckle is. You know, and it's it's really funny that you know perceptions are everything. And the the the problem with when someone has a perception, it's a belief that they're saying the right thing, even though it might not be true. You know, and he came to me and said, you know, hey, I would I would like you know for you to write the rules for this for me. And I told him, yeah, I can do that. Who better that? Yeah, well, and you know, but I gave him two prices. Because I knew I knew it was gonna cause me problems. You know. What way, John? Well, yeah, I would explain if you can. Sure. You know, you got regulators who, you know, I had worked now, I worked to get them to understand MMA. You know, worked through all those problems.
SPEAKER_03Now, you don't have to say names, but are these regulators ever refereed? No. Thank you. You know what I mean? No. Have they ever fought at least? Nope. Oh my God.
SPEAKER_02Let's be honest. And so you, you know, some there are some things. There are some out there that you know they are, that do, but you know, very few. And you look and you go, you know, bare knuckle sounds like, oh, it's terrible. But you know, going through MMA, you know, it's like you're allowed to take that elbow and hit it right in the middle of someone's face, and that's legal. And I'm allowed to take that knee and bring it up into your face or jaw or nose or forehead, that's legal. And I can take that shin and kick you with a you know, a 60 mile an hour kick to the head, which is like you know, hitting you with a baseball bat. That's all good, and they're all good with it now. But this this thing that actually I've got to be pretty careful of before I damage it, because then I have a tool that's gone and now I'm one-handed, they're all up in arms about it when from the very beginning, Ray, I would sit there and I would take a boxing glove and tell them, this is not made to protect my head. It's made to protect the hand. Here, and I would tell, you know, they would have their, you know, when I was going to court for the UFC, I would have their expert witness. I would say, I want you to do me a favor. I want you to take that glove and hit that desk. You know, there'd be a desk in the courtroom. I said, Hit it as hard as you can, right? And you know, they would go out and you know, you know, and I said, take it off. Now hit it just as hard. Right? And it it's like, you know, you say well, what's it protecting? It's allowing the boxer to hit more often without hurting their heads, you know, and so you look and you go, you know, I went and I gave them the uh the option. I said, look, I'll I'll write the rules and you don't say I wrote them, and this is my price. And I said, if you want to use my name, here's my price. And I made it double. Yeah. You know, I made it double. Because if something goes wrong, or even if it goes right, they're gonna you know John McCarthy. Oh, yeah, the John McCarthy. And so I was like, you know, I don't want my name really associated with it. Now I'll say it because I'm proud that they're doing good and everything. But, you know, he took the the right one, the one I wanted him to, and he made it work. And it does work. And there was things you know that I put in there, you know, we we we did the whole thing with towing the line. You know, you're not starting from the corner like in boxing. And and that's the whole thing of let's make it a little bit different. Let's, you know, you've got to have these things that people And is it fair to say it's three different sports? Absolutely boxing, MMA, bare knuckle. You because you're good in boxing will not make you good in MMA or bare knuckle. Exactly. It uh obviously it lends itself in certain categories, but you've got to be a different person in each one. The same as, you know, if you're good in bare knuckle, it doesn't mean you can go in and fight boxers. That's right. They're different. And they're I mean just Pauly last week or uh, what was it, Saturday? Exactly. You know what I mean? Hey, you know, bare knuckle boxing is if you don't understand the clinch, you're gonna have problems in this sport. Because the good bare knuckle boxers, the ones that are champions, they utilize the clinch to do damage. And they do unbelievably. How long is you hook, right? Well, you can even hook. Yeah, you can hook, but you can't actually hold. I can't hold around the weight, I can hold it with an underhook, an overhook, I can hold on the back of the weight. What we do, you know, a single or a double, you know, collar tie as far as I can't do a double, but I can do a single collar tie on either side, and I can rip the body and rip the uppercuts, and it's hard. You know, this does this works in boxing. It doesn't work in bare knuckles. Yeah. You know, I mean you remember the, you know, I'm I'm being honest, you Ken Norton used to use, you know, the whole crossface. That works much better in bare knuckle because you're it's a harder thing for you to get through. But, you know, that boxing glove has got a big frontal face area. It's so it gets stopped or it gets slowed down by things that that bare hand slips right through.
SPEAKER_03And and jumping ahead now, what do you think of our executive officer Andy Foster? The way he's made a pension. He cares about our fighters. Yeah. Um in the same subject, we have an awesome team now. You know, some of the cancer is gone, and thank God for that. And you know what? I mean, thing it's uh things are all good. You know, we again we have a pension. Are we the only ones in the world?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. We have a pension for the fighters. And he's trying to do another one that it's a great idea. It's a phenomenal idea. It was it's AB 2130 of the California Assembly. And it all he's at what he's asking has no effect on taxpayers. Yeah. It's all funded by a sponsor. That sponsor, then you and I, we become the billboard. So you know it does affect us a little bit. So what? It puts a pension out there for MMA fighters and boxers that fight in the state of California. 60 rounds for boxers and 40 something for I think I think they're you they're they're doing it both by fight and by rounds. So you have to have so many fights or so many rounds because some of your fights You just gave Antonio Barrera over a hundred grand.
SPEAKER_03You know what I mean? And honestly, you know, you're looking and go and and to excuse me to cut you off, Andy didn't have to do that.
SPEAKER_02No. But this is what makes Andy Foster the best executive officer there's ever been in the state of California, and basically in the sports of MMA and boxing, he is proactive. He is always doing things. He's on the ground, man.
SPEAKER_03He just came out with a license plate here in California. Yeah, I showed that, Mark. You guys want to really support MMA and boxers? We got we got a California plate with uh boxing gloves and MMA gloves. Check it out, guys. Yep. Be the best way to show honor to your local boxers, man.
SPEAKER_02That's it. You know, if you like the the fight game and you want to help guys that you know gave you that entertainment and stuff, man, buy the plate. You know, saying it says right there, you know, support of fighters. You know, and so that that's you know, what he's been doing is just absolutely incredible. You know, it says in his mandates, as far as you know, the California State Commission, one of his responsibilities is to come up with new and novel ideas that that benefit the sport and move it forward. He has done that just relipment. Props to the boss there. Props to the boss, man. Andy's a badass in his own right. Let me tell you, you're Andy can fight. This is why when you say, you know, do any of them fight? I'm thinking, well, Andy Foster did, you know. And uh he's a hell of a grab. Right? What's that? Isn't he a black belt as well? He just got his black belt, you know. Uh it's I could beat him, bro. I could beat him. I'll try it. You keep it on, you keep it standing, baby. Yeah, that's right. That's it. Uh he uh he's he's just phenomenal. And uh California has been very lucky that they were smart enough to hire Andy Foster.
SPEAKER_03And he, you know what he's known all over the world. Yeah. And very powerful man for good reason and smart. Yeah, it's hard to get a smart, tough guy. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Props to to Andy and John.
SPEAKER_02And he doesn't act tough. That's the part, you know. Yeah, I always say I always say when people, you know, all of a sudden, you know, this person who's never been part of fighting, never fought in their life, and they become part of a you know the athletic commission or a port, also they become tough guys. And it's like, stop. And the guys that are tough, they don't act.
SPEAKER_03You could actually look him up on YouTube, it shows a few of his fights. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so he's a tough guy. Yeah. So hey, John, before we get off, man, I just uh I always ask my guest, um, if you had to go out to a dinner, what kind of food would you eat? Mexican. Mexican. It's where I grew up. Come on.
SPEAKER_02I love, I love hot food. I love spices. I bet dude, I I I go off. I go off of no, she's she's more towards the Italian side. But I go off of, I call it the seafood diet. I seafood and I eat it. You know, it's just I don't care what it is. I did. I had to. Well, you know, it's one of those, you did the same thing. Yeah. And it comes a point, you know, as we get older, we start to slow down in what we're doing physically. And I was like, I started, you know, I was eating the same amount and then not doing the same activity. I got fat. And so I was like, oh no. I you know, if I'm sharp, no. If I'm gonna come back, I gotta get in shape, I gotta lose weight. So I've lost about 55 pounds now. Twisted steel and sex appeal. See, there you go. Well, I don't know if there's any steel, and I don't know if there's any appeal, but and what kind of music do you like listening to? Oh, I love old-time rock and roll. That's right. You know, rock music. I love country too. You know country, you know, but uh rock and roll. Led Zeppelin. Oh, Led Zeppelin, come on. Farner, Kansas, Eagle, Boston, ACDC, Guns N' Roses, that, you know.
SPEAKER_03How about how about movies? Have you been watching any like uh uh this new one with um the Dunton Ranch?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you ever watched it oh yeah, dude. I loved Yellowstone. Yellowstone was great.
SPEAKER_03Why you bought me a cowboy hat? I don't know what that was about.
SPEAKER_02That's because you look good in a cowboy hat, brother.
SPEAKER_01One day I came home with a cowboy hat. That's good, dude. She doesn't want you to wear that with nothing else. That's right, that's right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But hey, John, but I thank you for coming on, and hopefully we'll do this in another year. Absolutely. I have no problem with that, brother. John's gonna be refereeing tonight at how do you pronounce that that casino? You guys, this will be aired later, so you already know. But come check it out. John McCarthy's gonna be Acadure Arena. Accounture arena. Yeah, kind of weird. And he's doing boxing. Are you gonna be back in the I mean you just did the round of rousey? You felt comfortable in there?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So John McCarthy's back, man. John McCarthy's back, and I want to thank you for coming on, John. I love you, man. You're like my best friend. You know, you I dig it the way you've uh through the years you've humbled yourself. And when you called me the first time on the phone, it's a quick story. Call me. I was like this. I was a trauma truck driver. I'm like this. John McCarthy, I'm trying to Yeah, what's up?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, what's up, brother?
SPEAKER_03You know what I mean? Yeah, what's up, man? I was starstruck, but she just showed me a lot of love, and the best way for me to show you love back is have you on my podcast, you know. And I thank you, John.
SPEAKER_02Ray, brother, you you are a good man. Say goodbye to the guys. Everyone, thank you for listening. I hope it was worth it. God bless, guys.